"I nearly fell off my chair. I didn't even think about it being an option."
That Poppy Cleall was a future England captain was obvious to everyone. Everyone but her.
The 29-year-old has been chosen to lead her country for the first time in Sunday's rematch against New Zealand, who suffered a record loss to the Red Roses last weekend.
Cleall takes on captaincy duties and her preferred number eight position, meaning regular skipper Sarah Hunter is on the bench in Northampton.
Head coach Simon Middleton said he wanted to develop the leadership depth in his squad before next year's World Cup in New Zealand and Cleall was a "perfect fit".
Speaking to the Saracens back, it is clear why.
Cleall's life experiences have made her resilient, she uses her prominence to speak up about issues facing sportswomen and, crucially, she is obsessed with rugby.
'We shouldn't be hushed'
First, the campaigning.
Last season, Cleall was looking to buy some rugby boots. She searched online and realised there were no images of female players advertising any of the rugby products.
After contacting one company directly and making little progress, Cleall put out a call to her Instagram followers asking them to send emails too.
"This is a personal issue that I had and I felt if I was having it, how many other people were having it?" she tells BBC Sport.
"I felt I needed to say something. They were shutting down the visibility of women's sports and they needed to realise that we're the fastest growing sport in the world. There's 2.7m of us and they were ignoring a vast amount of people that play rugby."
Cleall's plan worked. She says since "we bombarded them with emails" the company has now increased the number of women used to advertise their products.
It was a cause Cleall was passionate about, but given her standing in English rugby she did have to give it some thought before sharing on social media.
She adds: "I did think, 'who is going to ring me in five minutes and say can you please take it down?' But the support we got from it and all the messages - I couldn't believe it. Putting yourself out there can be quite scary."
Cleall says she did not always have such courage to speak up, but it is something she's "grown into".
"I was more aware about my career and how it might come across [before]," explains the Norwich-born player.
"As I've got older I'm not as bothered. I'm not as apprehensive about those sorts of things. Sometimes we might have been hushed a bit, but as we've all grown in women's sport. We've realised we do have a voice, we do have the ability to create change.
"We shouldn't be hushed because sometimes we say something you should take note of.
"It helps when I have other females speaking outwardly and openly around me. People in the media using their voice for change, and for good, in women's sport. Strength in numbers is nice."
Prison officer job 'was completely different me'
On the pitch, Cleall is renowned for being tough and that has helped her become one of the best players in the world.
That resilience was needed during the three years she spent as a prison officer, first at what she describes as "one of the most violent young offenders' institutes in South London" before moving to Bristol.
"That was a completely different me," she says.
"You couldn't be yourself inside the prison. It was definitely out of your comfort zone."
Cleall had to be tough much earlier in her life too. Alongside her twin sister Bryony, she took up rugby aged six and the pair faced plenty of obstacles on their journey to becoming England internationals.
Bullied at school for playing the sport, Cleall and her sister would have to travel two hours just to play because of a lack of opportunities for girls.
Despite the challenges, she says: "There was never one moment in my career that I wanted to give up rugby."
Cleall adds: "I had the motivation, but to look back at the times I might have struggled when I was younger and think, 'keep going - you'll be England captain...'
"The goal was to play for England and I never thought in my wildest dreams I could be captain."